Conversation with Professor Władysław Bartoszewski

“Do not be afraid, help people”

Conversation of Marian Turski with Professor Władysław Bartoszewski, co-founder of Żegota, published in “Polityka” (issue 47, 2002)

Before the second half of 1942, no one – neither Poles nor Jews – realized that the death sentence for Jews – known in literature as Endlösung – had already been passed and was being implemented in great haste. Marek Edelman, one of the leaders of the Jewish Combat Organization in the ghetto, confesses that people deluded themselves, or perhaps wanted to delude themselves, even when they were being loaded at the Umschlagplatz into wagons bound for Treblinka.

Who was Konrad Żegota, after whom the underground Council for Aid to Jews was named?

There was no such person until Zofia Kossak invented the codename Żegota. Then the name Konrad was added to make it harder to associate the name Żegota with Jews.

Can we establish the date of birth of Żegota?

Documents show it as December 4, 1942. But as early as October 14, 1942, in issue 18 of “Rzeczpospolita,” the official organ of the Government Delegation, a communiqué was published stating: “As a result of the initiative of several social organizations from Catholic and democratic circles, a social assistance committee is being organized for the Jewish population affected by the brutal persecution of Jews by the Germans. The committee will strive, as far as possible and with the means and possibilities that must be considered under the country’s occupation conditions, to provide assistance to the victims of Nazi violence.” The communiqué referred to the fact that on September 27, 1942, a Temporary Committee for Aid to Jews was established.

The establishment of Żegota thus marks the beginning of institutional, one might even say official, because it was associated with the Government Delegation, aid. But spontaneous individual or organizational actions or manifestations of activity were known earlier…

Until the ghetto was closed, as long as one could come to the residents of this district without fear, bring them a package, handle some matter for them. This mainly concerned those who already had contacts with Poles. Unfortunately, the tragedy was that people who lacked acquaintances in the Polish environment had minimal chances of help. People like the characters in Isaac Bashevis Singer’s books, who lived their separate lives, were born among Jews, went to school only with Jews, spoke Yiddish among themselves, worked among themselves, died among themselves, and could live their entire lives without ever talking to any friendly Christian. They were the first victims because they had no foothold, knew no one on the Aryan side. Today, we generally read diaries and accounts of people from more enlightened classes, from the bourgeoisie, artistic professions. The socially fresh memory film “The Pianist” concerns a man who worked daily before the war at Polish Radio with dozens of colleagues, Poles. This was an extraordinarily atypical situation. Typical would be the fate of a Jewish tailor, porter, small peddler, but such a person had no chance of finding rescue in an alien environment.

We mentioned the date of the establishment of the Temporary Committee for Aid to Jews – September 27, 1942. This is already after the end of the so-called Great Action, that is, after sending about 310,000 Jews from Warsaw to Treblinka. Many historians ask the question: why so late?

Before the second half of 1942, no one – neither Poles nor Jews – realized that the death sentence for Jews – known in literature as Endlösung – had already been passed and was being implemented in great haste. Marek Edelman, one of the leaders of the Jewish Combat Organization in the ghetto, confesses that people deluded themselves, or perhaps wanted to delude themselves, even when they were being loaded at the Umschlagplatz into wagons bound for Treblinka. We Poles, Christians, began to realize a little earlier than the victims in the ghetto that the threat was extreme, biological, because the intelligence cells of the Polish military and political underground reported mass crimes against Jews in the eastern provinces of pre-war Poland, occupied after the outbreak of the Soviet-German war after June 22. In the final phase of the liquidation of the ghettos, escapes to the so-called Aryan side intensified sharply. Then we fully realized the enormity of the need for help for escapees from the ghettos, for people seeking shelter, etc. Here, some committee according to the social aid formula adopted in the charitable tradition was not enough, but there had to be – based on a wide base – a nationwide institution authorized by the government, operating with its help. Preparatory work required dozens of conspiratorial contacts. With factors from the Home Army and the Government Delegation for the Country, especially with the Departments of Social Welfare, Internal Affairs, and with the Government Plenipotentiary himself.

To whom would you attribute the greatest credit for the establishment of RPŻ?

First and foremost to Zofia Kossak and Wanda Krahelska-Filipowicz. Thanks to their biographies, they had access everywhere, as they were strongly rooted in pre-war arrangements. Zofia Kossak was a member of the board of the Military Family, the wife of a major of the Polish Army who was in an oflag, a well-known writer, a Catholic, co-founder of the underground Front for the Rebirth of Poland. Wanda Krahelska-Filipowicz had a socialist-democratic background. Her husband was the ambassador of the Republic of Poland before the war, and she herself, as an eighteen-year-old, participated in the assassination attempt on the tsarist governor Skałon, so she had connections with democratic Piłsudski circles. So these two people had access to various decision-makers also in London and were absolutely credible. They were joined by Czesława Wojeńska from syndicalist-socialist circles, a good acquaintance of these ladies. As I mentioned, Zofia was the wife of a Piłsudski supporter, and her close relative and friend Anna Maria Lasocka was the wife of Roman Lasocki, an activist of the National Party from Łomża and the president of the Union of Polish Landowners. This was of great benefit to our activities. It was known that “Anulka will arrange it” if there was a need to place people in manors. And it so happened that in the same house, General Tadeusz Komorowski-Bór, their pre-war acquaintance, also a landowner, and people from the Bund and ŻKN played bridge. I will mention other FOP activists, as I was also in this organization. So Zofia Trzcińska-Kamińska, a religious sculptor, the wife of Zygmunt Kamiński from the Warsaw University of Technology, so Aldona Kimontt, a pre-war Catholic Action activist, so Colonel Remigiusz Grocholski, former adjutant of Piłsudski, so Jan Kozielewski, widely known by the pseudonym Jan Karski. Karski was then, for me as a young man, a great authority. It was not openly said, but it was known that he was on a courier mission.

How were the members of the Council selected, who appointed them?

The protocol formula indicates that it was a representative body.

Was Żegota therefore a social body authorized by the Delegation, or an organization established by the emigrant government and its delegation?

The Council included delegates of political parties that supported the government and were part of government bodies. It was more than a spontaneous social body. In documents, we find the name either Council for Aid to Jews at the Government Plenipotentiary for the Country, or Council for Aid to Jews at the Government Delegation for the Country. This “at” was to some extent a condition for the Council to be included in the budget. Well, the Council was partially financed from the budget of the Department of Social Welfare, but also the Department of Internal Affairs, which was responsible for nationality and security matters. Both directors of these departments – Jan Stanisław Jankowski, later plenipotentiary, and Leopold Rutkowski – were involved in this work from the beginning. Also, Stefan Korboński, as head of the Directorate of Civil Resistance, and later head of Social Resistance in the Directorate of Underground Struggle, commented, sent communications to the press, information that was to support the Council’s activities, and also informed abroad about Jewish issues through his channels (radio). The Council included groups that recognized the government of the Republic of Poland in London, which is why the communist PPR did not join it. However, I want to emphasize that the PPR conducted aid actions for Jews within its capabilities and received money for these aid actions, among other things from us, although not officially from the Council, but from the Jewish National Committee. Because certain funds were distributed by the Jewish National Committee, which was an agreement of six Jewish organizations. In my opinion, apart from saving people, this was the most important lasting effect – the establishment, probably for the first time in the modern history of Poland, of an institution where, by their own choice and with the acceptance of the legal Polish government, Polish and Jewish organizations of different political hues, with different backgrounds, cooperated with mutual trust. One of the two vice-presidents of the Council was a representative of the Bund, Leon Feiner, and the secretary of the Council was Adolf Berman, a representative of Zionist organizations.

How did it happen that, for example, Aleksander Kamiński – and his merits and connections with Jewish socialists and scouts are well known – did not find himself in Żegota?

And whose delegate was he supposed to be? Who was supposed to delegate him? He helped people just like Irena Adamowicz and others from scouting circles, like Maria Kann. I would say that in Żegota there was a group of people who were not from the first line of party work. Neither Julian Grobelny, nor Tadeusz Rek, nor Marek Arczyński. Zofia Kossak did not even join the Council.

Why?

Presumably, conspiratorial reasons spoke in favor of delegating me instead of her. Similarly, one might wonder why the PPS delegated Grobelny (he became the chairman of the Council), and not, for example, Natalia Zarembina, who was a more well-known activist. Moreover, later, when Grobelny had to withdraw from work due to partial exposure and the threat of arrest, the socialists put forward Roman Jabłonowski, who became the president of the Council after Grobelny.

How did you get into Żegota?

I was, as I mentioned, delegated by FOP, and I came into contact with FOP through Karski in August 1942, and then Zofia Kossak proposed that I participate in the action to help Jews. I would like to point out here that my actions, as a fervent Catholic, were influenced by my then confessor, 45-year-old Father Jan Zieja. He told me not to be afraid and to help people, and that it would be a form of my gratitude to God for bringing me out of Auschwitz.